Photo of family is used by permission of William Sutherland. Single photo of Elizabeth is shared by Danielle Joliffe Borah.

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Elizabeth is listed with her parents and siblings on the 1870 Grundy Virginia census as being four years of age. This would make her birth year 1866 and since no mention is made of four years and how many months, it could go all the way back to 1865. We know this conflicts with her headstone information and conflicts with some information on her death certificate. It also conflicts with a date that's listed in the Counts book by historian EJ Sutherland. We know census records themselves can also be incorrect but at four years of age, she would not have been trying to make herself seem younger, although it is possible that the person who provided the information to the census Taker was not her mother, and it may have been incorrectly given At that time.

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Elizabeth was named after her father, William Lewis Counts' sister, Elizabeth Counts Kelly. Her parents were:

WILLIAM "BILLY" LEWIS COUNTS 1816–1911 and NANCY (ROSE) COUNTS 1841–1917.

ELIZABETH & SIBLINGS:

Zilpha Ann Counts (Silcox) 1859–1902

Elmira Counts (Stanley) 1861-1922

Noah Bruce Counts 1863-1942

Virginia Maryland Counts (Rasnick) 1864–

*ELIZABETH COUNTS (HAY) - SEE NOTES RE BIRTH YEAR DISCREPANCIES

Lydia"Liddy" A. Counts(Colley) 1869-1926

William Hopkins 1872-1942

George McClellan Counts 1874–1875

Joseph Tilden 1876-1960

Alverta "Vertie" Counts (Childress/Childers) 1878–1961

Ora Counts 1881–1895

DISCREPANCIES RE: BIRTH & DEATH DATES

Added info/research/writing by Phyllis Counts, Elizabeth's great granddaughter, 4/2017

*1865 DOB listed in EJS Book, Page 139

*1866 DOB listed in EJS Book, Page 109

*1866 DOB estimated per 1870 census

*1867 estimated DOB per 1910 Census

*1/9/1869 DOB listed on Headstone

*1/11/1871 DOB listed on Death Cert

* Depending on which birth date is accurate, Elizabeth could have been 6 years older or younger. The year 1869 listed on her headstone may possibly be discounted depending on the month that she was born (if accurate of January) as her sister Lydia was supposedly born that same year although the recorded census shows Elizabeth was 13 when Lydia was 11. Unless it was (on average) 9 months apart, as well as most women refrain from intimacies for several months, it is not very probable that both children were born the same year. More research needs to be done to ascertain Lydia's birth month.

Location of correct cemetery and headstone by BILLY BRICE COUNTS and alternate DOB of 1/9/1869.

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THE FOLLOWING SECTION was taken from original research by Elihu Jasper Sutherland in the renown book, Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow and census records and compiled by Virginia Brown, April 2017:

Elizabeth, age 13, lived in Sand Lick, Buchanan Co, VA with her parents, William L. & Nancy (Rose) Counts. Her father farmed to support the family.

Household Members - all born in VA

William L. Counts 60

Nancy Counts 40

CHILDREN:

Pheby Counts 19

Noah Counts 17

Virginia M (Maryland) Counts (Rasnick) 15

Elizabeth Counts (Hay 13

Liddy A. Counts (Lydia?) 11

(William) Hopkins Counts 11

Joseph I. (Tilden) Counts 9

Elantia Counts 1

Lilly M. Counts 1 (granddaughter)

ELIZABETH married AMBROSE WILSON HAY in Dickenson Co, VA on April 8, 1892. Their children were:

Cleat Webster Hay 1892–1978

Kerry Hay 1895–1925

Luther Hay 1896–1918

Alta Pearl Hay 1898–1978

Lillie Myrtle Hay 1901–1974

Oakley Homer Hay 1903–1984

Willard Hay 1904–1985

John Cecil Hay 1909–2000

James Earl Hay 1911–1977

Half-siblings from ELIZABETH'S father's first marriage to

MARTHA "PATSY" SKEEN were:

Sarah Counts 1844–1904

Susan Counts 1845–1859

Isaac Fullen Counts 1845–1914

Margaret Counts 1847–1893

Mary Counts 1849–

James Floyd Counts 1850–1921

Elvira Counts 1854–1935

John Counts 1855–

Nancy Counts 1855–1917

Eliza Jane Counts 1856–1918

MARTHA (SKEEN) COUNTS died in Wise Co, VA about 1857. ELIZABETH'S father, WILLIAM LEWIS COUNTS married her mother, NANCY (ROSE) COUNTS in Wise County on December 28, 1858.

Researched and compiled by Virginia Brown

April 2017

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7/30/2017

THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL INFORMATION WAS RESEARCHED AND WRITTEN BY PHYLLIS COUNTS, great granddaughter of Elizabeth, and granddaughter of Elizabeth's first-born child, Arthur Stewart Counts & his wife, Hattie Alice Counts:

Prior to her marriage to Ambrose Wilson Hay, Elizabeth bore two children:

1. ARTHUR STEWART COUNTS b 8/7/1886-11/1/1949 (on headstone); alternate death date 11/1/1945, is listed in Sutherland book, Page 112.

2. TIVIS RICHARD COUNTS b 2/27/1889 - 7/30/1989 (headstone)

The book, Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow, does not include these two children under Elizabeth's lineage but rather, lets them drift under the last listing of William Lewis' last child ORA (SEE PAGE 112). When I first began my research (2016) I thought that cousin Sutherland was attributing the boys to ORA which upon further research of comparing birth dates on the headstone, I found conclusively they couldn't have been Ora's children as she would have been 5 yrs of age at the time of Arthur's birth.

Further, both children are listed as being reared by William Lewis Counts and wife Nancy Counts but the mother is not directly attributed, leaving nothing but pure speculation which is pure misery for a descendant.

About the same exact time of my discovery, a newfound cousin of mine, CHAD COUNTS, informed me that a great grandson of TIVIS RICHARD COUNTS had made contact with him asking for any information he had. Chad, then put him in touch with me and he put me in touch with a couple of his relatives.

Vicki Hoops, a great granddaughter of TIVIS RICHARD COUNTS (Arthur's brother) informed me that Elizabeth had been the mother of both boys, that they were only half-brothers, that Elizabeth had them both out of wedlock, that while she went on to marry a different man (AMBROSE WILSON HAY), Elizabeth had left the boys with her parents to be raised (William Lewis & Nancy Rose Counts). She did, however, end up taking her youngest son, Tivis, to live with her and her new husband.

The boys were about 2 years apart. I don't have the exact birth date of Tivis on hand. But Arthur would only have been about 4 years of age when he was left by Elizabeth. The 1900 Census record reveals that Elizabeth did have Tivis at some point living with her and her new Hay husband/family. However, he is listed incorrectly as "Travis". If Tivis was about 2 years younger than Arthur, he would have been about 2 years of age, a more easily hidden age at a time of late 1800's morality.

ADDITIONAL INFO ON HEADSTONES:

I was told by a descendant, John Hay through Elizabeth's son Willard and his son Kerry Lafonne, that neither Elizabeth or Ambrose had this type of headstone until many years later when their children or grandchildren purchased them. Prior to this they were simple larger rocks. Further, all of the headstones were brought up to Backbone Ridge by wagon.

On 9/20/2021, I had the extreme pleasure to speak with Elizabeth's 93 year old granddaughter, Theda Jewell Hay Artrip. Theda was the dau of Elizabeth's son, Willard hay and Willie Arrington.

She said, *I remember Mom (Willie Arrington hay) talking about Elizabeth. That when she was young, Mom said she was the prettiest woman I had ever seen.* Theda recalled seeing a picture, now long lost, of Elizabeth and Ambrose when they were old that was on a piece of metal. She said that the house that now stands on Backbone Ridge is their second house and the first house set back a little from the road. It now belongs to her nephew, Chris Cortney. Theda said her parents moved in with Elizabeth and Ambrose to take care of them when they became sick.

She vividly recalls when Elizabeth's husband, Ambrose, (Thedas grandfather) died:

*I was eight. Ambrose was sick and they were fixing a bed in the yard to take him outside and enjoy the outdoors. I was looking at a catalog. I heard a cane fell and went in to his room. He had fallen back on the bed and died right there. They used to rub medicine if you were sick and it was kept on the mantle. I was crying and rubbing it on his face. Gma Elizabeth was walking back from Haysi. When she came back, Ambrose was in the living room with a sheet over him. She fell down on her knees. She prayed a prayer that seemed like it was 4-5 minutes. That's about all I remember about that. Elizabeth was at her son, Oakley's, house when she died, about six months later. The odd looking tree that was in the hay Cemetery they estimated was 200 years old. It was destroyed in 2018.

SEE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION FOR ARTHUR STEWART COUNTS on findagrave.com

UPDATE: As of 4/13/2017, the father of ARTHUR STEWART COUNTS is not known and was stated as such at the time of Arthur's death on his death certificate. Two living Counts relations indicate that his father was a Sutherland; possibly a Robinson. Turns out they were both incorrect.

UPDATE: As of July 2017. A granddaughter of Arthur Stewart Counts, Phyllis Counts (daughter of Eugene Edison Counts) approached Betsy Counts Williams, the daughter of Arthur's grandson, Norris Gray Counts (son of Sidney Counts) to do a 37 marker yDNA test, to which he agreed. It was hoped that the testing would solve the mystery of Arthur's parentage which is reported to have plagued Arthur, so much so that he is said to have opined, "I am a man with no name" and is said by another of his granddaughter's, Yvonne/Evonne Counts Artrip, he harbored this feeling to his grave. In an interview with Evonne in August 2017, she said that Arthur's daughter, Selma Counts Sloan, had recounted Arthur's words and that Selma had told her the last name of his suspected biological father.

At the time of the testing, his daughter, Betsy, divulged that Gray was himself suffering with brain cancer. His wife and family lovingly tended to him and administered the testing. The results were scheduled to be returned by 4-6 weeks. Unfortunately, Gray passed two weeks prior to the results and while they did not pinpoint the first name, it is now known with 83% accuracy according to the ydna testing results that the blood line from which Arthur Stewart Counts, his children, grandchildren, etc. descends from is none other than: RASNICK. Because of the utter secrecy of the name of Arthurs biological father, we suspect that it was a Rasnick who may have been married.

Circumstantial evidence leads me to believe it was Noah Webster Rasnick, husband of Elizabeth's sister, Virginia Maryland Counts Rasnick.

1. They both lived on Nealy Ridge at the same time Elizabeth did and were only a couple of years apart in age and perhaps.

2. If Noah Webster Rasnick IS the bio father, Elizabeth may not have felt that she actually abandoned Arthur S. Counts at all, as his (potential?) bio father lived close to him. Perhaps, she thought they would bond and come to know one another as father and son. Or perhaps she thought, This is YOUR SON! YOU take care of him!

3. The fact that Arthurs half brother, Tivis, knew who his biological father was but not Aut (nickname) indicates, to me, a higher level of secrecy, leading me to wonder why as they were both born out of wedlock so why would one son be told or have been able to find out but not the other?

Written by PHYLLIS COUNTS - 11/2017 & 8/2021