TWO AWESOME SOURCED RESEARCH WEBSITES ON OUR JOHN COUNTS AND LATEST DOCUMENTED NEWS:

FOR THE MOST IN-DEPTH, CURRENT INFORMATION VISIT KAYSER-COUNTS.ORG (BY COUNTS RELATED RESEARCHERS, MARIE RASNICK FETZER AND SHARON BOGUE LEMKUIL) and BRETT COMPTON'S WEBSITE: https://sites.google.com/view/john-counts/home?fbclid=IwAR2tp4lSaxHwjXh0CY09n52M8Dzjc7vT-eD7uGiofOt_16THpdI_y8D6jl0&mibextid=q5o4bk

(DESCENDANTS ONLY OF THIS SPECIFIC SWVA COUNTS LINE):
JOIN US ON FACEBOOK @ JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW
OR WEBSITE @ COUNTS FAMILY REUNION.ORG
(THE ORIGINAL AND OLDEST COUNTS REUNION FOR THIS SOUTHWEST VA COUNTS LINE, ALMOST CONTINUOUSLY RUNNING YEARLY SINCE 1936).
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NEW RESEARCHERS, PRODUCES NEW DOCUMENTATION!!!
Counts & Rasnick descendants are working hard to locate our John & Mary's beginnings, family, birth place & birth dates.
Marie Rasnick Fetzer, Sharon Bogue Lemkueil, Brett Compton and Chad Counts joined forces in 2019 in an ongoing attempt to thoroughly examine any and all currently available materials in their quest to ferret out and distinguish OUR John from others and unlock the full history of John & Mary, including DNA comparisons and evidence.

FOR A COUNTS PRESENTATION by Marie Rasnick Fetzer that was shared on the online Zoom Counts Family Reunion 2020, go to:
http://kayser-counts.org/countsreunion2020.mp4

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NOTE: WE IMPLORE YOU NOT TO LINK EVERY COUNTS SOUNDING PERSON TO THIS MEMORIAL. THERE WERE NUMEROUS JOHN COUNTS INDIVIDUALS WITH VARIOUS SPELLINGS LIVING IN/NEAR THE SAME AREA AS THIS JOHN COUNTS( in/near the Shenandoah Valley VA counties) during the mid to late 1700s. This is the one reason the proof has not yet been forthcoming. INSTEAD, please message with your edit suggestions, documentation and thoughts which will be emailed to our team of researchers. We want this to be accurate, correct?? Thank you for your cooperation. 8/20/2022
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IT IS ONLY FITTING THAT WE BEGIN with a few paragraphs of how it is that we have come to know the existence of our John & Mary Counts of Glade Hollow and pay tribute to those who have documented and published findings of our earliest known Counts ancestors.

Information about JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW and his numerous descendants is from a lifetime of research and one-on-one interviews by lawyer turned judge of Dickenson County, Virginia, ELIHU JASPER SUTHERLAND, himself a Counts descendant. He recalled that he drew his inspiration largely from his grandmother, SYLVIA COUNTS SUTHERLAND, who was the daughter of John & Mary Counts' grandson, JOSHUA COUNTS & MARTHA KISER. Listening to stories of seemingly bigger than life Counts characters, ELIHU found himself utterly captivated. He needed to know more. He became our hunter.

When Elihu died in 1964, the research he had amassed was left unpublished. Enter smart wife, HETTY SWINDALL SUTHERLAND who not only was able to compile and supplement her husband's research into a cohesive unit, but she and her son, WILLIAM SUTHERLAND, also were able to figure out how to publish the genealogy research. The first printing was in 1978. Currently in its third printing (2009), SOME DESCENDANTS OF JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW is a must-have when studying JOHN COUNTS whose earliest origins were documented by cousin SUTHERLAND, to 1765 in the Shenandoah Valley, along Hawksbill Creek, about four miles north of the town of Luray, now Page County. **

**FOR YOUR COPY OF SOME DESCENDANTS OF JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW, GO TO:
Dickenson County Historical Society, (276) 926-6355, Tues. & Thurs. 1 to 3 p.m. Hours are subject to change due to availability of volunteers. Call before you visit to ensure office will be staffed. Arrangements can be made for research other than the hours listed by making an appointment.
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Researcher and Counts descendant, BRETT COMPTON, now documents that our British Colonial American, John Counts of Glade Hollow lived in the Shenandoah Valley area as early as 1749 (per findings 7/2021); a good 16 years earlier than what researcher E.J. Sutherland had found.

This means that before the formation of numerous early British Colonial Virginian towns such as New Market (est. 1784) or Woodstock (est. 1761), our John lived and breathed in what was then known as Frederick County, later to become named Shenandoah County, and finally to Page County. John lived nearest Luray, a town of wealth and importance surrounded by immense natural beauty. The area today is still very well-to-do and both land & housing are expensive.

According to Counts descendant and historian, E.J. Sutherland, family legend has it that our John was of Germanic origin. But the current team of researchers have not yet uncovered and documented that link.

Likewise, as was the case with the initial researcher, E.J. Sutherland, JCs parents, siblings and birth place are still all UNKNOWN.

Researcher, JOHN WAYLAND, in his book, The German Element of the Shenandoah Valley, compared recorded wills in the counties of Frederick, Augusta and Shenandoah, during the period of the American Revolution of which our John lived, and found that the percentage of Germans were: 36% in Frederick (1770-1783), 13% in Augusta (1778-1786) and a full 70% in Shenandoah (1772-1784).

Perhaps due to the incessant attacks and rumors of attacks by Indians and continual warring on the early settlers in Virginia's back country frontiers, JOHN COUNTS's son-in-law and former Hessian soldier, JACOB RASNAKE, who had married John's daughter, MARY MOLLIE, moved hundreds of miles from ultra beautiful Shenandoah County, Virginia to Glade Hollow, Russell County, in Southwest Virginia about the year 1789. JOHN & MARY COUNTS and several of their children quickly followed. John left a portion of the Hawksbill Creek farm to his son, Philip, who remained there until his death in 1843.

The actual date of the passing of JOHN COUNTS is UNKNOWN. His Last Will and Testament was prepared on April 3, 1802. One year later, on April 27, 1803, the will was presented before the Russell County court. For unknown reasons, it was presented a second time on July 26, 1803.

Mary, John's wife, died on June 25, 1814 as was indicated on her headstone read by researcher E.J. Sutherland during his first visit to Glade Hollow in 1931.

John & Mary's son, GEORGE COUNTS, continued living on the Glade Hollow farm until about 1835, when he was forced to sell due to his son, Philip's, legal entanglements of lawsuits that he lost and to pay them and their corresponding legal fees, his father sold the Glade Hollow farm. It is not known why George offered his own farm up to settle Philip's legal bill. So, if you've ever wondered how we lost the farm, there is your answer.

It is believed by E.J. Sutherland that George moved southward to Washington County, VA and his own son, Philip, moved to Carter County, Kentucky, establishing an area of land then called Counts Crossroads. George's other children are known to have lived in Washington County, VA. George and his wife, Eve/Eva Haynes Counts are surmised to be buried somewhere in Washington County, VA, but the exact location is unknown.

COUNTS HISTORIAN E.J. SUTHERLAND RECOUNTS:

"On August 27th, 1931, I first visited the old Counts farm. I found it in the possession of MRS. (ALICE SHOEMAKER) GRAY, daughter of Reynolds and Rachel Shoemaker, the widow of HENRY FRANCES GRAY, the son of Nelson and Nancy Gray. She told me that she had lived here 53 years at that time (beginning about 1878). She referred to an old two-story log house known as the "Granny Counts House". The old house had been torn down about forty years (approximately since 1891 and all the other Counts buildings had disappeared long since. [PLEASE SEE PHOTOS OF ALICE & HENRY, ATTACHED TO THIS MEMORIAL, recently located from the Facebook group Descendants/Relatives of James Gray 1765-1849].

EJ continues:
"She showed me the old John Counts Graveyard on this ridge. It was in an open field without any fencing or other protection. I removed enough weeds to find markers for seven graves, all very old and weather-beaten. I could find no inscriptions on four of the stones and very little on two others. On the largest headstone, I found the following:

June 25th 1814
Mary Counts Was Born 1722

EJ continues: "The body of John Counts of Glade Hollow has lain in an unmarked grave for 145 years. By his side the loved companion and help-meet of this venerable pioneer had slept peacefully through the sunshine and storms of 134 years. Fortunately, the filial love of a son (George) saved this spot from oblivion by erecting this small slab of native limestone over his mother's grave. But for this action long ago, we would wander endlessly over these hills searching vainly for the graves of our earliest ancestors in Russell County. If George Counts' simple monument to his mother has accomplished so much for us, is there not something that we can do to preserve longer the location of the final resting place of this wilderness mother, as well as her brave and hardy husband? The countless generations to be born with Counts blood in their veins will look to us for some action to save for them the thrill of standing here in the centuries to come to say with the assurance of definite proof: 'Our pioneer ancestors, John Counts of Glade Hollow and his wife, Mary Magdeline Counts, sleep here.' This new granite monument is our answer. May our people strive to keep grand the memory of this couple unto the farthest ages when 'time shall be no more."
(Why E.J. did not take pictures of the cemetery or of the headstones at that time is unknown.)

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As an attorney and judge, E.J. Sutherland certainly would have known his way around court rooms and legal documents. Documentation was at his disposal and was easily accessible to him. After all his many years of research, he lists ONLY the following names and info for the children of JOHN & MARY COUNTS (for the most up to date research findings which will be incorporated into this site in due time, PLEASE REFER TO the kayser-counts.org website previously mentioned above):

1. EVE (no known birth date or place of origin) married Matthew Mattox (sometimes spelled Maddox on certain documents).

2. MARY "MOLLIE" 1764-1834 (no known place of origin) married Jacob Rasnake (also spelled Reversnuck/Rosesnake/Rasnick, and other spellings, on some documents). Lived, died and is buried in Glade Hollow, Russell County, Virginia.

3. JOHN (JR OF CLEVELAND) (born abt 1765 - no documented birth date or place of origin) married Margaret Kelly. Lived, died and buried in Cleveland, Russell County, Virginia.

4. Elizabeth "Lissey" (no documented birth date or place of origin) married Henry "Harry" Willard. No further info now known.

5. Catherine (no documented birth date or place of origin or further info).

6. Christina (no documented birth date or place of origin or further info).

7. Philip (no documented birth date or place of origin) married Anna Kiser on 8/2/1785 in Shenandoah County, Virginia. Lived, died and is buried somewhere on the original portion of farmland along Hawksbill Creek in Shenandoah Valley, Virginia, that was left to him by his parents.

8. George (no documented birth date or place of origin) married Eve Haynes. After being forced to sell the Glade Hollow property which he inherited from his parents, due to his own son, Philip's legal fees, George, Eve and his four children ( Philip, John, Eve and Lynic) moved to Washington County, Virginia. George's son, Philip's line, later moved to Carter County, Kentucky.

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SOME FACTS TO PONDER:

1. John Counts of Glade Hollow is the earliest definitely known ancestor of the Countses of Southwest Virginia.

2. NOTHING is definitely known of John's ancestry, birth, parents, siblings, relatives or early life.

3. There were numerous immigrants of the name K-U-N-T-Z (believed to be, yet unproven, one old Germanic form of Counts), and its various spellings. Several of them became settlers in the Shenandoah Valley at an early date. No proof has yet been uncovered to establish a connection to our John Counts, either through DNA or documents, even circumstantial.

4. Sutherland contends that "It is POSSIBLE that our John Counts of Glade Hollow was a descendant of Joseph Kuntz (or COUNTS, as he spelled his name in his will in 1730) who came from Germany to Germanna, Virginia, in 1714". It is also "POSSIBLE" that he wasn't a descendant of Joseph Kuntz.

5. To date, not a single person has provided DOCUMENTATION of a familial relation of this John Counts to:
a. Nicholas X,
b. Elder John Koontz (a pastor at Mauk's Meeting House who officiated at the marriage between John's & Mary's daughter, Mary 'Mollie', to Jacob Rasnake.),
c. John Koontz (a merchant near the Opequon Settlement in Shenandoah Co., VA)
d. or the parents that had previously been linked BY OTHERS on this memorial.

6. LOWELL KOONTZ, who claims to be a descendant of ELDER JOHN KOONTZ of famed MAUCK'S MEETING HOUSE, says THERE IS NO CORRELATION OR DNA EVIDENCE that JOHN COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW is related to his KOONTZ line. LOWELL, also claims to be a descendant of GERMANNA'S JOST CUNTZE, but even he admits he has no evidence other than circumstantial.

7. Findagrave contributor and researcher, SUSAN JURBAN - [email protected] shares this:

"John's parents are unknown, he was NOT the son of Johannes Michael Cuntze and Anna Catherine Stoever. Their son, Elder John Koontz b. 1739; d. 1832 Alma, Page Co., VA m. Elizabeth Baker. Please see the Memorial page for Elder John Koontz - Find A Grave Memorial 48366090

8. The maiden name for JOHN'S wife, MARY, is NOT documented and is considered UNKNOWN. Cousin Sutherland didn't find it and neither have countless other researchers during the past nearly 60 years.

It is believed that the SUMMERS name has been readily attached to the wife of this John Counts by mistake. Researchers are still pursuing her identity.

The Summers name was included in EJ Sutherland's book, John Counts of Glade Hollow, Volume 2 CORRECTIONS & ADDITIONS, which was published by his wife and son after EJ's death. The Summers name was added by a source to the book without any pronouncement it had been discovered, nor was there any verification. The person who supplied the name has been personally contacted by this writer and was informed that "someone else had given the name to me". When that "someone else" was also contacted, we were told that "someone had taken my research and misunderstood that the SUMMERS name was for our JOHN. It was actually for a different John Counts that I was researching."

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In continuing to research our JOHN & MARY COUNTS OF GLADE HOLLOW'S BEGINNINGS, we have noticed UNDOCUMENTED and ERRONEOUS information being routinely duplicated and spread on reputable genealogy sites. We are simply attempting to stop, and set the records straight. This is a work in progress as researchers are still on the job.

We would like to first apologize for bursting any bubbles but in genealogy research, especially, it bears repeating that copying others "work" and posting it on the internet does not provide evidence, proof, a paper trail and certainly does not make it true. We are still researching, still looking, still open to possibilities but we look for actual documentation and proofs. We welcome it. We know that you do, too.

For this particular named ancestor, other than documentation located by Counts kin and historian, Ellihu Jasper Sutherland, as of yet, additional documentation is not forthcoming in specific regard to the name of his parents, where they came from, the location and date of his birth, day and month of his death, names of his siblings, and maiden name of his wife. It has been suggested by one researcher on our team, that the possiblity exists that John was adopted! We can all agree that this needs to be and should be accurate.

NAMES OF JOHN'S CHILDREN HAVE BEEN DOCUMENTED BY E.J. SUTHERLAND. Were there additional children that were missed by him? Cousin Sutherland was a notorious researcher, both professionally and privately. As a lawyer and judge he had personal access to documents we have yet to see ourselves. Current researchers, not just copiers of others so-called lists, seem confident that John's children listed in Sutherland's "Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow", stand as is. Copies of the documentation were not included in the book that his wife and son assembled and published after his death.

Some well-meaning contributors are listing information as though they are established facts and when asked, "Where is the documentation that has eluded so many others, for so many years?", the reply is either silence or met with resistance. We had previously requested that unsubstantiated dates, parentage, siblings and children be unlinked by one particular site until such time as we may see the documentation. This did not occur. As such, we have decided to attempt to begin anew. We hope you will come with us on our journey and perhaps, let us all reconsider some of our own "work".

THE COUNTS NAME IS NOT A ONE SIZE FITS ALL WITH EVERY IMAGINABLE SIMILAR SOUNDING NAME. We acknowledge that the possibilities of different spellings of the Counts name seems endless and, in fact, even when we know we have the correct ancestor, the spelling of the name may be different than what we are accustomed to. This is one of the greatest difficulties in this quest; however, we must ask ourselves, could they all be related?

We know, through DNA evidence, that last names ending in Counts are not all related just because we may have a similar sounding or similarly spelled or even same spelled name. Since we now know this for certain (we will furnish the site that compares DNA results which have been submitted thus far, later in the discussion) we may end up thinking we should just go ahead, connect and fill in the blanks anyway. After all, what difference does it make? But Is that justified? Is that research? Is that documentation? Is that what we truly want?

In the early 1700's, America was not yet America and was under British control. As non-English speaking immigrants boarded ships and their names were demanded of them, what do you think a list of passenger names was comprised of? We believe names were spelled however they sounded to the person doing the writing, just like early census records who didn't verify the spelling but just spelled how they thought it was spelled which is not always accurate. How could uneducated Englishmen spell an unknown foreign language? How could an uneducated foreign speaking person understand an unknown English language? It is certain that names were spelled as they sounded to the hearer.

Therein lies one source of the problem we are now facing. We don't know if the names were instantly Anglicized at the time their names were first processed prior to boarding a ship, or if some did that later, in an effort to fit in or perhaps a certain spelling had already been established and they kept it. While it is most certainly true that we aren't sure of everything, at this point we know a little about what this particular line has not yet been proven to be and some of what is incorrect.

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE THREE KNOWN LINES OF UNRELATED COUNTS'? AT LEAST ONE KOONTZ LINE SUBMITTED DNA TESTING AS DID ONE GLADE HOLLOW COUNTS LINE. THE RESULTS? THEY DID NOT MATCH. (Per interview with Lowell Koontz, author of "Descendants of John Koontz" 7/21/2018) This, of course, does not mean that the results of those individuals represent their entire lines.

DID YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED KOONTZ LINES THAT EVEN RESEARCHER/AUTHOR LOWELL KOONTZ STOPPED ATTEMPTING TO TRACK THEM? (Per interview with
Lowell Koontz, author of "Descendants of John Koontz" 7/31/2018. [email protected])

Counts kin and researcher, ELIHU JASPER SUTHERLAND, spent 50 years of his life researching John Counts & related families. He relays in his book "Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow" (from which we obtain certain documentation and biographical detail):

"John Counts of Glade Hollow is the earliest definitely known ancestor of the Countses of Southwest Virginia."

"Nothing is definitely known of his ancestry, birth, relatives or early life. .... The place of his nativity is likewise unknown."

THIS IS OF PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE. While we acknowledge that the Internet has brought some of the world of research to our fingertips and the opportunity for locating missing information, many of our Counts and related families researchers who earnestly seek answers still have not located or have been provided with any actual documentation to fill in these missing unknowns. Instead, names and dates are being filled in with information that in some cases belong to another line completely.

Case in point: It has become commonplace to see the parents of John Counts of Glade Hollow being listed as Johannes Cuntze and Anna Elizabeth Catherine Stoever. Their names and documentation eluded master Counts researcher, Elihu Jasper Sutherland, who was darn near meticulous in finding available documentation during his time and would generally cite the source, especially one as important as this. Have you seen any sources cited for this "new" information? We, too, would love to know the names of his parents, his siblings, his birth date, his birth place. We just want it to be accurate and to have a verifiable source.

Cousin Sutherland hinted at the possibility that our John may have been related to Germanna's Jost Cuntze:

"It is also possible that our John Counts of Glade Hollow was a descendant of Joseph [Jost] Kuntz [Cuntze, per Germanna Foundation] (or COUNTS, as he spelled his name in his will in 1730, who came from Germany to Germanna, Virginia, in 1714."

In our time, there is still no proven link between the CUNTZE line and our particular, JOHN COUNTS. (See Germanna Foundation for further information). So if people are repeating that the line IS linked to say, Johannes Michael Cuntze, we would appreciate seeing the documentation? The Germanna Foundation would appreciate it also.

According to LOWELL KOONTZ, Elizabeth Catherine Stoever was the wife of HIS Koontz line, the father of (Pastor of Mauck/Mauk's Meeting House) ELDER JOHN KOONTZ. Lowell, contends that HIS KOONTZ line and John Counts (of Glade Hollow) are DEFINATELY NOT THE SAME LINE.

Yet, John Counts is marked on one Findagrave memorial as being a definite sibling of Elder John Koontz. This would make not one but two John's in the same family. Some families did, in fact, have the same first names for children but would give them different middle names; one for the fathers line, the next for the mothers line.. But where is the evidence? Hard to fathom when even the descendant of Elder Koontz categorically states that they aren't siblings. He has even published a book on his line, "Descendants of John Koontz", and Glade Hollow John did not make his list of researched siblings. Who are you going to believe?

Lowell, did share with me that there was a time when even his John spelled his last name, COUNTS instead of KOONTZ. He cited the example of who he believed was his John owning land on Hawksbill Creek. That is where Glade Hollow John lived. Definately. Cousin Sutherland had established that through documentation. My personal view after speaking with Lowell Koontz is he has believed something was about HIS John when it was really Glade Hollow John.

Could his John and ours be related? Lowell, does not think so but I am still open to the possibility.

We do know that his John and our John, were different people with similar names. We know this because Elder John Koontz officiated at the marriage of our John's daughter, Mary "Mollie" Counts to Jacob Rasnake in 1784, where he was certified to being able to marry couples in Shenandoah County 1783 to 1827. Our John did not officiate at any marriages that we know of and no documentation was found indicating that he was licensed to perform marriages. Still, it is most interesting that two John Counts;/Koontz; lived near enough to each other to, at the very least, have known each other since one presided over the other's daughter's marriage ceremony.

Further, Elder Koontz' birthplace is Opequon Virginia which is in close proximity north of Hawksbill Creek, VA. Mauk's Meeting House (also called Mill Creek Church) is in close proximity to Luray, VA, which is close to Hawksbill Creek. Is it possible that Glade Hollow John attended the meeting house? I think it is very possible. The two John's definately knew each other, definitely lived in close proximity to one another and definately had dealings with each other (to wit: officiating at the marriage of the other John's daughter). But is this proof they were related?

Cousin Sutherland's "Some Descendants of John Counts of Glade Hollow" Page 18:

"The exact date of his passing is not now known. On April 27, 1803, his Will was presented before the [Russell County] Court .... and on July 26, 1803, it was again presented in court .... and ordered to be recorded." No word on why it was presented twice. The date is NOT THE DEATH DATE for John of Glade Hollow; only the date when his Will was presented to the court. Generally, a Will is submitted shortly after a person's death. The assumption, then, is his actual date of death was near the first date.

Lowell Koontz' John died in 1832 in Page County where he is buried. Our John died in 1803 and is buried in Russell County. Two different men. Some information belonging to one, is attributed to the other.

MORE TO COME. A WORK IN PROGRESS.
Written by Phyllis Counts, descendant of JC throuh JC Jr (of Cleveland, VA), son Joseph, son William Lewis Counts of Nealy Ridge, Dickenson County, VA, son Noah Bruce Counts, dau Hattie Alice Counts.